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TOPIC: Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto

Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 09 Dec 2016 15:01 #8177

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Interesting talk on MSC study for heart disease with a direct comparison of autologous vs. allogeneic for a particular type of heart disease:


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I think that the idea of getting cells from a young healthy donor may be better than cells from a random patient. The evidence that autologous is better isn't there and we know the business model is problematic for commercialization.

WST

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 09 Dec 2016 15:15 #8178

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Per WST: "The evidence that autologous is better isn't there and we know that the business model is problematic for commercialization".

Who said the evidence isn't there and who is the "we" re commercialization? I do not think that Fas would agree with your statements, and I believe that if CYTX had been well-run the last 10 years, it would probably be now sitting on top of the Stem-Cell Industry IMO!

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 09 Dec 2016 15:21 #8179

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Speak on behalf of yourself not for Fas or anyone else.

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 09 Dec 2016 15:47 #8180

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I did not speak for Fas, but I am sure that he would not agree that Allo is better than Auto (in fact, he said so in a recent post) - Fas is trying to rest this month and you seem to be bringing up a touchy subject at the wrong time - if you are done with CYTX, and prefer ATHX, that is fine, but don't try to convert the MB to your way of thinking - it is an inopportune time for Fas - plus, this is Advent - you know, peace and goodwill - Merry Christmas WST (or Happy Chanukah)!

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 09 Dec 2016 17:32 #8181

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NIce lecture WST
So, I am correct, in that both the auto and allo were bone marrow sourced for this cardiac study ?
If so, do you think this played a role vs a adipose auto mixture ?
I would also say, this does go against thinking small dosing is a problem when looking at the fragility study. The smaller dose did better.
Personally, I put a fork in Cytori's cardiac program some time ago.... Many reasons play into this conclusion for me. Certainly in what we once envisioned.

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 09 Dec 2016 20:24 #8184

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Hedgefund, glad to see you back posting, but once again it's never clear as to your position, or exactly what point you are trying to get across - may be it's just me!

PS - anyway, hope you were on vacation and not ill during your absence!

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 10 Dec 2016 08:11 #8185

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Hedge,

Yes, they were both bone marrow derived. Whether adipose autologous vs. adipose allogeneic would show different results can only be determined with a head to head competition but I suspect not. Tigenix made the switch from auto adipose to allo adipose and I don't think they are the only one. It is indisputable that allo is the better business model, all else being equal. No one can argue that point with a straight face, IMHO.

WST

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 10 Dec 2016 10:04 #8186

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WST said that "no one could argue that point with a straight face" (namely that allo is better than auto) - okay, if you say so, it must be right! :really: :really: :grin: :grin: :bash: :bash:

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 10 Dec 2016 13:15 #8187

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Wall Street Titan wrote: Hedge,

Yes, they were both bone marrow derived. Whether adipose autologous vs. adipose allogeneic would show different results can only be determined with a head to head competition but I suspect not. Tigenix made the switch from auto adipose to allo adipose and I don't think they are the only one. It is indisputable that allo is the better business model, all else being equal. No one can argue that point with a straight face, IMHO.

WST


I must say, we have come to a very low level of discussion here on my board- for which reason I decided to come back for one post to voice my discontent.
For the ones who have followed the development in cardiac SC development, the presenter Joshua Hare is very well respected and well-known. He was PI of the two Osiris ACUTE cardiac studies, which obviously were not continued after Mesoblast bought all the IP of Prochymal from Osiris. The own Resvascor studies had priority at MSB- understandably. I also read several papers from Hare which helped a lot in understanding the science in cardiovascular also- no doubt.

His POSEIDON study- after all the other work done in the field- I do find highly "strange" lets say.

This is a CHRONIC (CHF- non-ischemic) study comparing the impact of CULTURED BONE MARROW CELLS (i.e. plastic adherent auto cells of old folks) with CULTURED BM DONOR CELLS i.e young healthy folks.
The ulterior motive of Hare remains in the dark, but for many years it is known that bm cells age quite heftily, not only in number (see slide below ) but also in quality... :really:


Chronic CHF patients tend to be older, so it it is very well established that in the BM source SC discussion, age has to be considered in the "manipulated discussion" i.e. whether cultured or not, since quality and potency not only decrease with AGE but also with multiplications i.e PASSINGS.

The POSEIDON results do not surprise and could have been predicted.

Different thing altogether though when MONONUCLEAR (UNCULTURED) BM cells are used.

In Europe- which is more devoid of commercial (patent driven) interests and where the effort of getting folks healthy is somewhat more genuine than in other places of this globe- the results of ACUTE and CHRONIC cultured cardiac trials using BM cells from the US have been noted also for many years.

The REPAIR-AMI, using MONONUCLEAR cells, study from Germany has already 5 years mortality data for a long time and was quite favorable using fresh BM cells cells.

For this reason BAMI was started in 2012- BAMI Homepage which is based on 3000 patients.... all uncultured mononuclear cells.

So- what do you think.....Adipose tissue has about 2500 times more STEM CELLs in freshly harvested tissue as BM and really if you think about it- Bone Marrow- OK , makes our blood cells, but NOT cells for the endothelial system, that is the vascular system, which is is highly represented in FAT TISSUE.

Its all a matter of time.
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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 11 Dec 2016 04:45 #8192

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fas wrote: His POSEIDON study- after all the other work ALREADY done in the field- I do find highly "strange" lets say.

This is a CHRONIC (CHF- non-ischemic) study comparing the impact of CULTURED BONE MARROW CELLS (i.e. plastic adherent auto cells of old folks) with CULTURED BM DONOR CELLS i.e young healthy folks.
The ulterior motive of Hare remains in the dark, but for many years it is known that bm cells age quite heftily, not only in number (see slide below ) but also in quality... :really:


Seeing that video yesterday was kind of mind boggling. We write the year 2016 and here we listen to stuff that we all have heard about 10 years ago.
For instance,
The allo BM had a 50 yard 6 minute walk improvement which was statistically significant over the auto group.


Really?????

Since 2006 I listened to at least fifty presentations and have seen hundreds of clinical results of BM cardiac studies, having these type of results. Nobody will sponsor this anymore- nobody wants to listen to it anymore, but still Joshua Hare presents this like it is the very first study and convinces super smart analysts like WST that it proves one of his brilliant theses.



As you can see on this slide from prof. Stefanie Dimmeler. which I believe is pretty old itself- made round about 2010 I would say- shows the cardiac SC development and Hare is even listed in 2006 with his MSC studies. The NIH and others, since have done many studies and concluded already- I am sure they will remember........

This is really quite amazing.....mind boggling even...:KO:
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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 11 Dec 2016 07:31 #8193

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Thanks for reminding us of something that we had forgotten about and or lost sight of: The ADIPOSE autologous MSc are undoubtedly a potent treatment paradigm. Their abundance and ability to maintain potency as one ages is no small thing.

I can understand WST 's rational for the allo being better than auto, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. It is the ease of access, having an off the shelf remedy immediately available without having to go through the liposuction.

But all things are not equal. A manufactured allo product will have to have strict production specifications. It is unlikely to have all the naturally occurring components that are in an INDIVIDUALS SVF. With a new cheaper and better Celution device available in the near future it is not inconceivable that auto could be an effective competitor to an allo product (assuming it existed). It would certainly have the ability to provide an alternative therapy and be an effective competitor with a low cost of goods sold.

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 11 Dec 2016 13:34 #8194

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Just to close this topic from my side- and I will be gone for a month or so, until Hedrick announces a secondary ( expected still in the holiday season since that would increase his options in January once more at whatever ATL) or partner deal- than of course next year in order not to screw up those same options.

Whatever allo- or auto cell treatment for chronic heart failure- from my perspective as somebody who followed the field quite intensively and who has now moved on the paths of allopathy as well as naturopathy,

I must say- treating these patients (IMHO) with cell therapy is like putting your money on the casino table. The outcome highly speculative and unpredictable.

[/b]

why?

Because of this- see the medications they (have to?) take - :cry:



I guess the average patient takes about 10 daily chemistry pills with all kinds of side-effects, which most likely will turn them into vegetables anyway. Maybe those side-effects wont kill them, it could though and if that happens, the mortality case will go on whatever group- placebo or treatment- they were in.
What I am saying here- really is- that cell therapy for chronic CHF patients is cell therapy mixed with biochemistry of toxic medications like statins and other stuff.
To me - unpredictable.
The medications in the slide above (those were the PRECISE patients) I have all tried myself. In 2007 my health profile had a lot in common with those folks. Now- not anylonger since I gave up on all that stuff, changed my nutrition and stopped vegetating. :whistle:
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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 11 Dec 2016 15:39 #8195

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Fas. as I have said before, there may be a partnership as early as Jan., but there definitely will not be a secondary either before y/e (as you speculated) or before Q-2 imo - they will exhaust every possibility to avoid a secondary at these prices, since that will essentially imo be the death knell for CYTX.

Enjoy your time off and have a great Holiday!

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 11 Dec 2016 21:46 #8197

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***What I am saying here- really is- that cell therapy for chronic CHF patients is cell therapy mixed with biochemistry of toxic medications like statins and other stuff.***

Oh geez !
So I guess no one should even bother with testing for chronic patients anymore.
At least these "toxic" drugs could pass a double blinded, phase 3, trial !
Is that why OA failed as well ? Because I bet 50% of the participants were on some type of Traditional and thus I suppose "toxic" meds as well !!!

Also, on the other thread about listening to Hedrick live....why not ?
Great comedy !
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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 11 Dec 2016 21:56 #8199

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Good points Hedge... Telling it like it is.

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 12 Dec 2016 07:21 #8200

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Hedgefund, it's really something having you back! :KO: :bang: :bash:

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 14 Dec 2016 16:09 #8229

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Thanks all for a lively discussion. Different points of view are what enable us to form ideas that lead to knowledgeable decisions. A bit of rancor is healthy; and of course humor is always welcomed!

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 14 Dec 2016 17:12 #8232

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Attended the Las Vegas Conference during the summer and MH told me they had to pull the plug on the heart trials because the cost was a 100K per patient.

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 15 Dec 2016 09:54 #8240

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MH told me they had to pull the plug on the heart trials because the cost was a 100K per patient


Besides the fact that the only patients willing to have stem cells corkscrewed into their heart muscle are not the best candidates for a successful trial.

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Heart Stem Cell Therapy Allo vs. Auto 15 Dec 2016 10:09 #8242

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My comment last night seems to have never made it to the board.
All well, nothing happening for us in cardiac anyway.

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